Discussion:
[kmymoney4] [Bug 361865] New: Dialog uses 'share' when in fact referring to shares and/or bonds (i.e., securities)
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Al via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-16 18:08:52 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

Bug ID: 361865
Summary: Dialog uses 'share' when in fact referring to shares
and/or bonds (i.e., securities)
Product: kmymoney4
Version: 4.7.2
Platform: Ubuntu Packages
OS: Linux
Status: UNCONFIRMED
Severity: normal
Priority: NOR
Component: general
Assignee: kmymoney-***@kde.org
Reporter: ***@quantentunnel.de

The drop-down list of activities in security accounts use the word 'share' but
should refer to shares and/or bonds. While I am not a native Englsih speaker,
it seems to me that 'securities' should be used. See also
http://www.accountingcoach.com/blog/stocks-bonds


Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1.Open the ledger for an investment account
2.Click the button 'New' in the bottom part of the window
3.Open the drop down list next to 'Activity'

Actual Results:
The possible activities in security accounts are:
1) Buy shares
2) Sell shares
3) Dividend
4) Reinvest dividend
5) Yield
6) Add shares
7) Remove shares
8) Split shares
9) Interest income

Expected Results:
1) Buy securities
2) Sell securities
3) Dividend
4) Reinvest dividend
5) Yield
6) Add securities
7) Remove securities
8) Split shares
9) Interest income

I filed this as a bug as requested by comment #2 to bug
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361850
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Jack via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-16 18:27:51 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

--- Comment #1 from Jack <***@users.sourceforge.net> ---
As a native English speaker, I do not see a problem. To me, a "share"
is the unit of ownership of a security, whether it is a stock or bond or
mutual fund. The link provided shows a difference between stocks and
bonds, but is not explicit enough that "shares" does not also apply to
bonds. I will do more research before wanting to change the English
terms.

To discuss the terminology further, I don't consider that I buy a
security. I buy shares in that security. The first time I buy shares
in a given security, I do have to add that security to the list of those
in which I own shares, but when I buy more shares, I don't buy that
security again. I'm not sure I can perfectly explain the grammar, but
the current use seems good.

I will respond directly to the other bug to discuss changing the German
translation.
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Burkhard Lueck via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-16 19:04:42 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

Burkhard Lueck <***@hube-lueck.de> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blocks| |361850
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Jack via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-16 19:33:02 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

--- Comment #2 from Jack <***@users.sourceforge.net> ---
I believe the underlying problem is that English is just sometimes a
messy language. In discussing investments, the word "share" seems to be
used in two slightly different ways. (I am referring to common usage,
not to a formal dictionary definition.) Sometimes it is used as an
equivalent word for stock, as in the article referred to by the link in
the original post. The other use is to refer to the unit of investment.
This is certainly used for both stocks and mutual funds. I have not
found any particular examples of this use for bonds, but I believe the
term is used in the same way. If we do not accept this, what term would
be used for the unit of ownership of a bond?.

I will try to get a short lesson next week from my investment advisor to
confirm this, but unless he says something I do not expect, I would
argue to leave the English terms unchanged. If that is done, we will
have to find a way to inform the translators that "share" in those four
terms is used as the unit of investment, not a particular type of security.
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allan via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-16 20:50:15 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

--- Comment #3 from allan <***@gmail.com> ---
I would not waste my time looking into changing the term 'share' here. It is
embedded deeply within KMyMoney source code, and appears well over 900 times.
Bond appears 13 times.

I agree with Jack that possibly instead what is needed is additional guidance
to the translators.

Out of interest, what is the distinction between the original term and the
proposed revision?
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Jack via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-16 21:16:42 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865
Post by allan via KDE Bugzilla
Out of interest, what is the distinction between the original term and the
proposed revision?
There are two separate bugs in question here. The first, about the
German translation, had a specific suggestion - to use a word that is
not specifically restricted in referring to stocks only. Burkhard Lueck
suggested to file a separate bug against the original English, so the
translators would have a better context.

My position is that the English should not be changed, which leaves open
the question of how to improve the context for the translators.

Your point about the extent of use of the term "share" suggests that it
should be reviewed at a higher level, but for this specific pair of
bugs, I think the only place to focus is in four of the specific types
of investment transactions which mention "shares" specifically buy,
sell, add, and remove.

My understanding is that the original term is equivalent to "share" only
as it means the same as stock. The suggested replacement seems to be a
more generic term, similar to "security." In English, I would argue
that you buy shares of a security (stock, bond, or mutual fund) but not
the security itself, although I admit it might be a difference only to
English teachers. I'm willing to leave it up to the German speakers
whether the difference is important in that language. In addition, if
we can specify the context somehow, then it can be dealt with an any
translation, in case it does make a difference.
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allan via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-16 22:40:36 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

--- Comment #5 from allan <***@gmail.com> ---
Many/most/some users migrate from Quicken to KMM. The English terms in
question are exactly the same as those used in Quicken, and probably the MS
equivalent too.

My advice is "Leave well alone."
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mitchfrazier via KDE Bugzilla
2016-04-17 15:38:55 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

mitchfrazier <***@comwestcr.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |***@comwestcr.com

--- Comment #6 from mitchfrazier <***@comwestcr.com> ---
I would tend to prefer the "expected results" in the comments in the original
bug report:

1) Buy securities
2) Sell securities
3) Dividend
4) Reinvest dividend
5) Yield
6) Add securities
7) Remove securities
8) Split shares
9) Interest income

Bonds are issued in some face value ($1000 or $10,000) and "you buy a bond" or
"you buy 10 bonds". You don't buy 10 shares of bonds, that in my opinion is
bad "financial" English. The term "shares" comes from the fact that when you
buy a stock you have the right to "share" in the future profits of the company,
when you buy a bond you get no such thing. Also, note in the list above that
it correctly did not modify "Split shares" to "Split securities" as "splitting"
only applies to stocks.

That said, using "securities", although accurate (both stocks and bonds are
securities), may not be optimal when you're entering a buy or sell transaction
for a stock. I think most people tend to have a better feel for stocks than
bonds and I think the term "shares" comes to mind more quickly when thinking
about stocks than does the term "securities." And I can't think of a better
term to refer to both.
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Ralf Habacker
2018-10-30 23:17:10 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

Ralf Habacker <***@freenet.de> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |***@freenet.de

--- Comment #7 from Ralf Habacker <***@freenet.de> ---
This is what deepl (https://www.deepl.com) returns:

1) Buy securities 1) Wertpapiere kaufen
2) sell securities 2) Wertpapiere verkaufen
6) Add securities 6) Wertpapiere hinzufügen
7) Remove securities 7) Wertpapiere entfernen
8) split securities 8) Wertpapiere aufteilen

1) Buy shares 1) Aktien kaufen
2) Sell shares 2) Aktien verkaufen
6) Add shares 6) Aktien hinzufügen
7) Remove shares 7) Aktien entfernen
8) split shares 8) Aktien aufteilen
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Jack
2018-10-30 23:58:44 UTC
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Jack <***@users.sourceforge.net> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|REPORTED |CONFIRMED
Ever confirmed|0 |1

--- Comment #8 from Jack <***@users.sourceforge.net> ---
Rereading this bug, I'm not sure if we ever filed a bug specifically for the
German translation.

I'm still against changing the English terms at this point. If we ever create
specific transaction types for bonds distinct from stock and mutual funds, then
we would certainly want to use different words for bonds. I also acknowledge
that you buy a number of bonds rather than a number of shares of a bond, but I
think the current usage is reasonably obvious (at least in English.) I suppose
using Wetpapiere in German might be more inclusive, but as I would not change
the English, it might be considered in inaccurate translation. (I do not speak
German, so I say that only on the basis of Comment 7.) Unfortunately, I do not
think there is any easy way to provide a note to translators, although I
suppose I might be able to discuss the terminology and address the issue in the
handbook. I'll add that to my list for completing the update of the handbook
for 5.x.
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Ralf Habacker
2018-11-08 18:28:50 UTC
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361865

--- Comment #9 from Ralf Habacker <***@freenet.de> ---
In english there is always used '... share' (see
https://cgit.kde.org/kmymoney.git/tree/kmymoney/widgets/transaction.cpp?h=4.8#n1454
and

https://cgit.kde.org/kmymoney.git/tree/kmymoney/widgets/investtransaction.cpp?h=5.0#n140)

The German translation contains an unfortunate mix

grep -A2 'shares"' ~/src/l10n-kde4/de/messages/extragear-office/kmymoney.po
msgid "Total for all shares"
msgstr "Gesamtpreis aller Aktien"

--
msgid "Buy shares"
msgstr "Wertpapiere kaufen"

--
msgid "Sell shares"
msgstr "Aktien verkaufen"

--
msgid "Add shares"
msgstr "Wertpapiere hinzufügen"

--
msgid "Remove shares"
msgstr "Wertpapiere entfernen"

--
msgid "Split shares"
msgstr "Aktien stückeln"


As the translation indicates that here securities or shares are related there
may be the chance to add a context with i18nc()
(https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Localization/i18n#Adding_Context_with_i18nc.28.29)

In the case "Add shares" this may be

i18nc("Add securities/shares", "Add shares")
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Ralf Habacker
2018-11-08 18:30:19 UTC
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--- Comment #10 from Ralf Habacker <***@freenet.de> ---
(In reply to Ralf Habacker from comment #9)
Post by Ralf Habacker
In the case "Add shares" this may be
i18nc("Add securities/shares", "Add shares")
or

i18nc("Add securities/shares/bonds", "Add shares")
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Ralf Habacker
2018-11-08 20:13:20 UTC
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--- Comment #11 from Ralf Habacker <***@freenet.de> ---
Another option is to take the proposal from bug 361850#c5 which would be

msgid "Total for all shares"
msgstr "Gesamtpreis aller Anteile"

--
msgid "Buy shares"
msgstr "Anteile kaufen"

--
msgid "Sell shares"
msgstr "Anteile verkaufen"

--
msgid "Add shares"
msgstr "Anteile hinzufügen"

--
msgid "Remove shares"
msgstr "Anteile entfernen"

--
msgid "Split shares"
msgstr "Anteile stückeln"

The
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